EPISODE NAME: ‘One Bid Away’ — Bulls That Almost Weren’t Famous and Other Tales from the Bull Studs 

When Lorna Marshall, Cody Sankey or Don Trimmer hit the road for the bull studs they represent, they’re out to acquire the next great genetic package for their customers. How do they choose? How do they compete with each other and remain friends? What happens next after they’ve made a significant investment? This episode covers all of that, along with their take on the beef-on-diary trend, future challenges to their business model and what could be game changers in the future.  

HOSTS: Miranda Reiman and Mark McCully 

GUESTS:  

Lorna Marshall, vice president of beef genetics for Select Sires, grew up on a Simmental operation near Valley Cetner, Kan. She judged livestock at Colby Community College before transferring to Kansas State University and earning a degree in animal science and industry. She was a Block & Bridle officer and a member of the 1990 reserve national champion livestock judging team. After completing her animal breeding master’s at Colorado State University, Lorna worked for the American Gelbvieh Association before beginning her career in the beef artificial insemination (AI) industry. She and her husband, Troy, raised their three children on their ranch in Colorado and now reside in Oklahoma.  

Cody Sankey, associate vice president of beef programs at Genex, has been involved in the Angus business his whole life, growing up on his family’s Kansas Angus ranch. He lives near Economy, Ind., with his wife, Lindsay, and their two children, where they are developing their own herd today. He holds a bachelor’s degree in animal science and master’s in ruminant nutrition from Oklahoma State University and is active in National Cattlemen’s Beef Association, the Indiana Angus Association and Indiana Beef Cattle Association.  

Don Trimmer, U.S. beef sales manager for Alta Beef Genetics, grew up in Woodsboro, Md., where he worked on his family’s registered Angus farm. He’s a Virginia Tech graduate with a degree in animal science and worked as a regional manager for the American Angus Association for nine years before serving as the vice president of member services for the Illinois Beef Association. He worked 23 years at Accelerated Genetics and was responsible for sire acquisition and product development. In 2017 Don joined Alta Genetics to lead their beef programs in the United States. Don has traveled extensively around the country and the world, promoting U.S. beef genetics and the use of AI in commercial and purebred beef herds. He now resides in Baraboo, Wis., with his wife, Jean. He has four grown daughters and two grandsons. 

Miranda Reiman (00:00:03):
Welcome to the Angus Conversation. I'm your host Miranda Reiman with my co-host Mark McCully, CEO of the American Angus Association. Mark, we are well into bull sale season now.

Mark McCully (00:00:12):
It's busy. Yeah, it is. And I think, I don't know, I don't know how many sales we have on some of these Fridays and Saturdays, but it is a lot and there's a lot of bulls being marketed and offered up across the country and demand has been incredibly strong.

Miranda Reiman (00:00:28):
A lot of optimism out there, especially when you can see what's happened. I mean previous months the run-up in feeder calf price and it's exciting.

Mark McCully (00:00:38):
Everyone's pretty understanding the importance of genetics and investing in genetics and that's a little easier to do when your feeder cattle are worth 16, $1,800. And the value of those good bull purchases are the ROI is definitely there.

Miranda Reiman (00:00:56):
So we have an episode here today where we do focus a lot on genetic decisions and kind of some of the genetic decision makers in the business.

Mark McCully (00:01:04):
Yeah, I think this was a fun one. Most definitely. We think about the influence, our AI companies, we call 'em AI companies, bull studs, genetic companies. I tend to call 'em more genetic companies anymore because they're not just bull studs as they maybe were, but we had three thought leaders in the AI industry and folks that have been in it for a while. And I think they're so important to shaping our beef industry. I mean really listening to what their customers need and in terms of the bulls that they need to have in their bull battery and offering out to their customers. Give us some insight into some of the bulls, what they're looking for on what they're buying, what traits they're looking for, and got to into some fun stories of how it's changed a little bit too, how they find bulls and the importance of data and the importance of technology and that pursuit of finding the next great bull for their bull stud

Miranda Reiman (00:01:55):
And even how they go undercover sometimes.

Mark McCully (00:01:57):
Yeah, we did hear some good stories. They get stealthy.

Miranda Reiman (00:02:01):
I will note that we did invite all of the major companies and we had three that were able to join us in person, so I imagine that this one will be maybe one that we do a part two sometime here down the road and get some other folks on, but it was really fun. We had Lorna Marshall, Cody Sankey, and Don Trimmer, so I think you guys are going to enjoy this one.

Mark McCully (00:02:19):
Yeah, some tales from the road from the bull studs.

Miranda Reiman (00:02:24):
So at the table today, we've got, I guess competitors and friends, I don't know if that's what we would call them, but representatives,

Mark McCully (00:02:30):
Friends and competitors.

Miranda Reiman (00:02:31):
There you go. Representatives from several of the bull studs and we're excited to talk just a little bit about the history and evolution of the genetics business over time and maybe a little bit about the future too. So I don't know where we start here, if we do experience first or ladies first.

Mark McCully (00:02:49):
How about ladies first? That's safe.

Cody Sankey (00:02:51):
Let's go ladies first.

Lorna Marshall (00:02:53):
Well, first of all, thanks for having me on the podcast today. My name is Lorna Marshall and I work for Select Sires

Miranda Reiman (00:03:00):
And been in that role for...?

Lorna Marshall (00:03:01):
Eight years, but I've been in the AI industry pretty much all of my career. So there's a joke among the friends and competitors that if I lose this job, I'm not employable because I've pretty much worked at, worked for all of the different AI studs.

Miranda Reiman (00:03:16):
And you are a K-State graduate, is that right?

Lorna Marshall (00:03:18):
 Yes. So I grew up on a small Simmental operation in Kansas, went to K-State, did a master's degree at Colorado State, ranched in Colorado for quite some time and new to Oklahoma.

Miranda Reiman (00:03:30):
And of course, on a personal note, we know what you put up with at home because Troy Marshall works on our staff in our commercial programs department.

Lorna Marshall (00:03:39):
Exactly. So yes, we have three adult children that are spread out across the United States, but yes, Troy and I ranch together and it makes for a lot of interesting family discussions, no doubt about lots of topics.

Miranda Reiman (00:03:51):
Perfect. Very good. And Don Trimmer now is sitting across from me, so Don, why you give your elevator speech?

Don Trimmer (00:03:57):
Well, I grew up on a small Angus farm in the state of Maryland. I'm an East Coast native. Went to school at Virginia Tech, went to work for the American Angus in 1983 and traveled Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Michigan for nine years. Spent a year at the Illinois Beef Association and moved to Wisconsin, worked for Accelerated Genetics for 23 years in their beef department, and then I've been with Alta Genetics for the last seven years, so I've had a little over 30 years of experience in the AI business.

Miranda Reiman (00:04:26):
And you're still up there in the north country then?

Don Trimmer (00:04:27):
I still live in Baraboo, Wisconsin

Miranda Reiman (00:04:31):
But no accent? You've not picked up an accent over the years?

Don Trimmer (00:04:33):
I've tried my best to keep from having a Wisconsin accent.

Miranda Reiman (00:04:38):
Very good. Well, thanks for joining us today. And Cody Sankey over to my right here.

Cody Sankey (00:04:42):
Yep. My name's Cody Sankey and work with Genex beef and been there eight years. Grew up in Council Grove, Kansas, as a fifth-generation Angus breeder and then ventured south to Oklahoma State and got a bachelor's and master's degree there. Then spent time at Michigan State University and then after that took the job that I currently have or worked through with Genex and kind of moved up there. And so I currently live in Indiana with my wife and two kids. Our daughter, Caroline, this is her first year to be an Angus exhibitor, so we're excited about that. So they're coming down today

Miranda Reiman (00:05:16):
Super fun and they are a pretty good workforce at home.

Cody Sankey (00:05:20):
Yeah, I'm not sure how anything's going to get done when they all leave, so we just hope we got good help that can kind of, friends and neighbors, you know how that is, so they're going to have to pick up the pieces.

Miranda Reiman (00:05:29):
Absolutely. Well, I feel like we get to know a lot about you in various different ways. We had your parents on the podcast and now Lindsay of course is writing a column sporadically there in the Angus Journal too, so if you had any secrets before Cody, that's

Cody Sankey (00:05:42):
Yeah, they're all out. She, she's an excellent writer and so everything gets exposed that happens, so she usually lets me proofread it sometimes, but if it's too good a story for an article, I don't get to see it until after it's in print.

Miranda Reiman (00:05:56):
You and my husband could maybe start a support group. He knows exactly how you feel. Very good.

Mark McCully (00:06:00):
Well, we thought we could have you on the podcast so you could defend yourself a little bit from some of the things that

Cody Sankey (00:06:06):
You always talked about. People I've been waiting all my life for you to invite me on here, so I feel like it's such an exclusive group of people that have been on here. I feel like I've achieved a level now.

Miranda Reiman (00:06:15):
I have asked Cody repeatedly for a list of who he would like to hear on The Angus Conversation, but apparently you're just humble enough. You didn't turn your own name in.

Cody Sankey (00:06:22):
I didn't never turn my own name in. I was worried about what may come out.

Miranda Reiman (00:06:26):
Very good. Well, I guess to get into our topic, we've got, I mean, a wealth of experience sitting around here at the table. Maybe just start out with the AI business and what changes you've seen over the years since your entry into it.

Don Trimmer (00:06:39):
Well, I guess since I'm the old timer,

Mark McCully (00:06:41):
Everyone kind of looked at you, Don.

Don Trimmer (00:06:43):
I know when we had a meeting here at the Angus Association earlier this year, I was kind of like the AI historian, in the things I've seen over the years, but it really has changed dramatically and it's just like anything else, the speed of change is getting faster all the time. When I think back the early nineties, I mean we're just starting to talk about synchronization. We had products like Synchromate-B, we had ... or prostaglandins, but still there were a lot of people had to do heat checks and that was one of our biggest hindrance that people use in AI. The value of the Genex has always been realized, and of course many of the European breeds, that's how they were introduced over here were through AI. But the technology has really improved, especially in probably the last 10 or 15 years, and now we talk about breeding cattle on appointment, synchronization, having most of your cattle pregnant, so they'll have on the first day of the breeding season, we talk about sexed semen and the impact it's had, the genomics and the increase in the race of selecting the next generation of sires.

(00:07:47):
All those things have had a huge impact, not only on the beef industry, but the AI industry overall.

Mark McCully (00:07:53):
Maybe even talk a little bit about Don in that meeting you kind of did a flow chart, which was really helpful. I wish we had it, of who bought who and who's merged with who and who calls who by. I still get confused some days of even all the companies, so you guys have seen a lot of that as well in the mergers and different brands, different logos, different company structures for sure.

Lorna Marshall (00:08:16):
Yeah, definitely. So Don and I have been through that. I think everybody at this table has been through at least one merger or one pending merger for sure. Yeah, I mean the economics of our business have changed a lot, which has driven that, and I think other things that you've kind of mentioned, genetic evaluations, big data, who's going to own the big data? All of that's changed as well, and it's an interesting time to be in our business and I think genetics and breeding companies are going to look different in the future for sure.

Don Trimmer (00:08:46):
Yeah, I think back in the eighties, there were so many small AI organizations because they were all started by local groups of dairymen and all a sudden through consolidation and they became bigger corporations. I know just a few years ago, I think there were what, nine different member co-ops in the select Select Sires Federation. So I think just the economies have forced all of us to work together or merge or sell to each other, and it's come down to basically about three organizations left, right?

Lorna Marshall (00:09:18):
Well, social media logistics, I mean, there wasn't UPS back when the AI industry was started, and so we were the way to distribute genetics and today, just like a lot of other products, you can buy it online, you can have it shipped through different transit companies, and so it's totally changed our business for sure.

Cody Sankey (00:09:40):
I know that I'm by far the young guy here that doesn't have the lot, their experience is far ahead of me. But in the eight years, that's what that came from. So that I've been at Genex, even just my short time, the amount of change that's happened and the way things have evolved, even when I started just I think how fast like Don and Lorna said, things move. We've all, Don and I weren't necessarily on the same team, but we are now and that's just in eight years and Lorna is going through that now. And then even the genetic side of things, how long a bull shelf life is, it's the one thing that I see is the fastest changing thing. We see it in the registrations at Angus each year. If you just watch that, how long a bull stays at the top and how fast we're moving to the next generation because we have a new genomic evaluation and they're out every Friday where Lorna and Don back, you used to sit around and wait for to

Miranda Reiman (00:10:37):
Wait for the printed book

Cody Sankey (00:10:37):
Wait for the printed one, and then you would race to the ranch and see if you could beat 'em there to get the bull. And now it's like every Friday it's like see what you can find.

Lorna Marshall (00:10:46):
Well, and to your point, Mytty in Focus and 878 when they were number one registration sires, there was over 10,000 registrations in the American Angus Association. I think this year. It was over four, between four or 5,000 and

Mark McCully (00:10:59):
They stayed there a couple of years

Lorna Marshall (00:11:02):
Two or three

Cody Sankey (00:11:03):
I don't even, I'd have to go back and look, but it's been a while since we had consecutive back-to-back registration breed leaders. I mean it's probably been Ten X, Ten X was the last one, so we've seen that now and I don't think you'll ever see it again. If you had to make a prediction,

Miranda Reiman (00:11:19):
And I suppose there's both pros and cons to that, right?

Cody Sankey (00:11:22):
Yeah, we hear it all the time, don't we? The pros and cons to that.

Don Trimmer (00:11:27):
The challenge for us is by the time you get a bull in your program and do all the health tests and get him in production and get him out and market him, you want to have some shelf life in it, especially at the cost of these bulls that we're buying these days or selling in the industry, which is great for the people selling them, but you've got to have some kind of shelf life in order to recapture some of that value.

Miranda Reiman (00:11:49):
Do you have to be better at predicting the trends than you used to have to be?

Lorna Marshall (00:11:54):
I don't think we have to be better at predicting the trends. I think we all kind of know what the trends are. You have to be willing to take on a lot more risk. I think the risk in our business has changed significantly in terms of our investments. We don't ever acquire bull thinking he's not going to work out. I mean, I don't think anybody here has written a contract on a bull that they didn't think had a better than 50% chance of panning out, and we just have to be willing to take more losses.

Cody Sankey (00:12:22):
I say it all the time, this business is a lot like building a professional sports team. You've got the Patrick Mahomes, but you also got to have the guys that no one really knows about that ultimately ends up there and there's some busts along the way that you don't see coming. And so it's like Lorna said, there's a lot of risk involved in how fast things move and how fast things change, and we talk about leading the breeding registrations. There's a second component to that is how good a semen producer they are, so they have to be popular, they have to be good, and they have to make a lot of semens because that's a big part of it as well

Don Trimmer (00:12:56):
Over the years, people say, well, how do you get a bull that sells all that semen or makes a million dollars and go, well, he's got to make the semen first. We've had so many bulls and we all can start coming down the list of the ones that say, if only this rascal would've made product the spring, we had all the interest in him. He'd have made a lot of money, but if they don't make any product, we can't sell 'em in. The problem with our industry is we have a short window to sell it. If you call a guy and say, Hey, I finally got semen on the bull and it's July 1st you go, my cows are bred.

Miranda Reiman (00:13:30):
Too late.

Mark McCully (00:13:32):
Maybe real quick backup. We talk about from a historical standpoint, when you guys, maybe I'll go with Lorna and Don when you guys got in the business, I don't know what our percent AI is in our industry today, but what would you have predicted

Miranda Reiman (00:13:47):
We would be at today?

Mark McCully (00:13:48):
We would be at today? Has the business evolved like you thought or not?

Don Trimmer (00:13:53):
Well, we were always 10% of the business period and beef-on-beef AI really hasn't grown much in the last 20 years. It's basically been fairly flat. The beef-on-dairy thing has changed it and we've had beef-on-dairy for 50 years. There's always an Angus bull and a Hereford bull that was standing around the barn to breed dairy cows. But the new beef-on-dairy model has changed this industry, dramatic. I mean, I just saw the figures that came out from the National Association of Animal Breeders for the first three quarters of the year and 30% of the semen sold in AI is now beef semen and we sell more conventional beef semen than they do conventional dairy semen. It's been a dramatic change in our whole industry and I think it's also been a little bit of a challenge for organizations that are pretty well run by the dairy people.

Lorna Marshall (00:14:48):
To your point though, we talked, there's been about a lot of change happen and it's happening at a faster rate. The one place we have not seen change is synchronization protocols. I think we would all love it if they could come up with a one-shot synchronization program where we could get more people to AI because the limiting factor for AI is not genetics. It's not the ability to AI. It is getting people to implement the labor to synchronize the cows, and you would've thought with all the other technologies that we've seen develop that we would see an easier less labor-intensive way to breed cows. But until that happens, I don't think we will change beef AI significantly. In the US at least.

Cody Sankey (00:15:27):
You talked about the beginning, we're competitors and friends and I was telling somebody today, yeah, we're competition, but actually our biggest competition is the herd bull. I mean, he's always the one stealing all the business because he's easier to turn out, he's easier to use, and yet granted he's in the way nine months out of the year, but those three months he makes up for it

Mark McCully (00:15:45):
He makes life a lot easier.

Cody Sankey (00:15:46):
He makes life a lot easier for folks that are farmers, they're making hay, and so to Lorna's point labor right now, it's just a killer for AI for people wanting to be doing it

Miranda Reiman (00:15:58):
Most of our listeners probably appreciate that though.

Cody Sankey (00:16:02):
Yeah, good help's hard to find

Mark McCully (00:16:05):
They'll sell you a bull.

Cody Sankey (00:16:06):
They want to sell us bulls,

Mark McCully (00:16:07):
But then they also want to sell bulls to clean up, but maybe not everybody's been through the process. Obviously there's probably most that are listening that have bought a straw of semen, but there's probably not a lot of our listeners that have gone through the process. Maybe kind of walk us through the process a little bit from when you find a bull, how you find a bull that you choose, and then you talk about some of the steps and the things that you guys got to go through to get 'em up and producing semen. Maybe talk through some of those basics.

Cody Sankey (00:16:38):
Yeah, it's not an easy process. You have to identify 'em. Obviously they can get 'em bought and you've got to compete against your friends across the table to get 'em bought, and then you have to get 'em on a truck and into a production facility. And for those of us in our line of work, they have to clear CSS to market that semen. That's about a 90 day time frame that you're going to get it all the blood work and the health tests and the things that we put through. And then we got to get 'em to freeze semen and get it to our distribution center back to our reps and out the door so there's not an easy button, Lorna, to get 'em moving that fast

Miranda Reiman (00:17:11):
And all the marketing that goes along with that as well. On the other side, getting the right pictures, the right,

Don Trimmer (00:17:17):
And again, when we talk about our time restraints, we figure most of the Angus bulls or most bulls in America are sold from January 15th to the April 15th, and so if we buy a bull the 1st of February, by the time we get him tested before he can come into stud, get him picked up and he's 60 days inside, I mean it's tough to get in that window to get the semen out the door. And some of us have gone the early release semen to try to get these bulls sampled because the key is getting semen out the door when people want to buy it that first year.

Cody Sankey (00:17:54):
The greatest marketing tool probably is the Angus sale report in that first year mark. Soon as that hits, everyone sees it. You get a lot of conversation whether it was a good or a smart purchase and what you gave for that bull, but you definitely hear the feedback very fast,

Don Trimmer (00:18:08):
I'm sure. I'm sure

Miranda Reiman (00:18:09):
All publicity is good publicity. It's

Mark McCully (00:18:11):
Right. That's very true. How about from the standpoint, you're talking about beef on beef, but you've got obviously beef on dairy, you've got export. Do you kind of go at each of those different markets with a little different approach or are there similarities? Are there differences?

Lorna Marshall (00:18:29):
Yeah, so for us, we market semen in about 72 countries. There are some similarities, but as we've grown in a lot of those markets, they have very specific genetic needs. Sometimes those are actually really hard for us to source in the US and we're looking for genetics in other countries. The EU is probably the most difficult for all of us to qualify for because they have to be IBR negative and everybody vaccinates. So you either have to talk producers into not vaccinating for IBR or you have to make 'em somewhere where you can keep their health status to where they qualify. I think South America and Brazil has been a big market for everyone around this table and we've sent a lot of US genetics down there, so it's been very good for Angus breeders in the United States for us to be able to grow in Brazil. And one of the unique things about Brazil is they have really cheap labor, and so whereas we only breed 10% of the cows in the US via AI, they breed about 50% of the beef cows in Brazil AI. And so it's actually a much bigger market in terms of units for us than the US is. It's just at a lower price.

(00:19:27):
I know the Angus, World Angus Forum's going to be in Australia, that's another big market for everyone around this table and they really do value a lot of the elite genetics from the United States. So I think that's been very positive for everyone. And then I think got some emerging markets. I know China, Russia have huge potential for U.S. beef genetics I think in the pretty near future, depending upon tariffs and things like that, but

Cody Sankey (00:19:50):
World complex, they always make selling semen.

Lorna Marshall (00:19:52):
They do.

Cody Sankey (00:19:53):
Interesting. My favorite part, just the different kind of genetics that we source for each country because we all probably have the same kind of passion for the same bulls that we sell here domestically, but if what you sell in the Europe versus what you sell in Argentina versus what you sell in Brazil versus what you sell in Australia or Canada, it makes my job fun because you get to pick a different bull and you can find a lot of different bulls. Lorna talked about Brazil, it's a high growth market. I mean you can't have enough yearling weight and a big stout powerful bulls and the thing that doesn't matter is birth weight. And so we all talk about it's fun to buy a high birth bull that you love the look of because those are the kinds we all enjoy to look at. Just sometimes five pounds of birth weight doesn't always sell well, and so Argentina, they like 'em a little smaller, and so that's one of my favorite parts about that is buying bulls for each country that fits differently.

Don Trimmer (00:20:47):
Sure. I think the other thing that's really changed, and especially when we talk about Brazil and we also talk about the beef on dairy is their terminal markets. No one is going to keep a replacement heifer out of any of those matings, so it makes it a little bit easier from our standpoint to just concentrate on, like Cody said, the growth traits for Brazil or the carcass traits for the beef on dairy market with calving ease and not have to worry about the whole suite of traits out there and whether or not this animal is negative on docility or low on heifer pregnancy or whatever because nobody's going to keep a replacement heifer.

Miranda Reiman (00:21:23):
Does it ever feel a little bit like old school selection before you had all the options to look at that you have today?

Don Trimmer (00:21:29):
Oh, I think I said this at our meeting we had at St. Joe was back in the day when Roy Wallace had his power score, which was basically birth, weaning, yearling and milk. And if they were in the top percentile, he added together and the low number one. And now with all these traits and for so many people they have one trait, whether it's PAP or it's heifer pregnancy or it's docility or it's a foot score. Trying to make these cattle hit all the boxes is really a difficult task. I am sure it's a difficult task for breeders as well.

Lorna Marshall (00:22:06):
I think one of the things I really admire about the Angus breed though is if you look at the top registration sires the last couple of years, Angus breeders are really good at finding the bulls that do both phenotype and a nice set of EPDs really well, and those bulls continue to surface in terms of registrations across all of our lineups. I mean, that's one of the things I really admire and I think that's going to keep Angus in the driver's seat is that your breeders continue to breed balanced-trait cattle. And I know sometimes balance is a little more difficult to market. Those of us are pretty good at marketing extremes,

Mark McCully (00:22:39):
Top 1% and so many traits.

Lorna Marshall (00:22:41):
But I mean when you look at the bulls that are at the top of the registration list, they're still the bulls that do a lot of things and are going to work for the commercial industry.

Cody Sankey (00:22:48):
And I think what Lorna says is very true, and what we see at least at Gen X right now is probably at Angus breeders as a whole. I think they've looked at things, they said, we have levels of growth and carcass traits that we like, and now we want those convenience traits. We want PAP, heifer preg, foot scores, hair shed, and I think making that balanced-trait animal, and it makes it hard for us in sire selection to find that one bull that has every number in the right spot. There's definitely give and trade. People want a silver bullet, but like Lorna said, they really are focusing on balancing things out. And I've seen more in the last two or three years that I think what'll put Angus ahead is that you call them management traits, at Angus, we call 'em convenience traits, but that middle line right there straight across, that's where the focus has been for our customers that we see.

Don Trimmer (00:23:35):
So the other thing I'll add and really hats off to Angus breeders when what 55% of the cattle registered are AI-sired and another percentage are ET-sired, but I mean there are a lot of really good genetics everywhere and the embracing of genomics and really getting these cattle identified at an early age. It used to be you'd pick up a lot of sale catalogs and you go, boy, just set it aside, but just about everybody's got cattle that hit a lot of the targets and are really pretty good cattle and the data matches up and that's a tribute to really Angus breeders because it's not that way in other breeds.

Miranda Reiman (00:24:15):
Are there any traits that you've been surprised that we've made progress so quickly on or conversely, any traits that you thought we'd make progress quicker on as a breed?

Cody Sankey (00:24:25):
I think Angus breeders have drawn the line in the sand on feet. I see that. I think there's a conscientious effort to make feet better in Angus cattle and they're focusing on it, and I think you can see that that tide starts swinging on it. Maybe you see something different, but that's the one trait that comes to mind for me real fast.

Lorna Marshall (00:24:46):
Yeah, no, I think they've made huge strides in feet. I think calving ease is always going to be a stalwart of the Angus breed. I would not forget about disposition, and I think the disposition EPD works really well today, but I'm just amazed, particularly with the age of our producers, that is a trait that we simply can't miss on or it's very hard for us to market a bull. And I know it's a trait that doesn't get talked about a lot, but in the commercial world, it's pretty important. Obviously we are a stud that's focused on in product merit quite a bit, and I think it's amazing that the Angus breed has bulls that are over 2.0 for marbling. And as you talk about breeding beef on dairy cattle that are very terminal, it's amazing what we have been able to create in the terminal world and where Angus competes, we have a broad enough genetic diversity.

(00:25:36):
We can be a maternal breed and a terminal breed, but it is amazing the terminal genetics that we have been able to create and populate over the last couple of years, particularly with genetic trend. I think the thing that I would caution everybody is, and I know the AGI team talks about it a lot, but collecting phenotypes I think is going to be one of the most important things that we as a breed can do in the future because we are turning generations really quickly. We're using all of those advanced reproductive technologies, Don, that you're talking about, and if we don't have phenotypes to back up what we're doing, we could definitely get ourselves in trouble. So I think that's something we're pretty committed to making sure we do.

Miranda Reiman (00:26:14):
I think I heard Ben Eggers say once you can just get to the car wreck quicker,

Don Trimmer (00:26:20):
And I guess let's not forget the strides this breed's made in growth. I mean, when you look at the charts from the Meat Animal Research Center, when the Continentals came over, they came over because they added pounds and now Angus is number one for weaning weight, yearling weight, carcass weight along with the carcass traits. And it's because Angus breeders have utilized the tools and the genetics out there to make quicker progress than anybody else.

Cody Sankey (00:26:44):
The thing I always enjoy about Angus is it's a great big tent and there's a lot of opportunities under that tent to pick your segment. And like Lorna said, we've got maternal, we've got terminal, we're at the Cattleman's Congress. There's show, I mean, there's all kinds of ways to make money in the Angus business and lines of cattle to fit that. And so it's the biggest breed. We sell the most Angus semen of any breed, but there's so many options. We went around the table and each one of us picked a different trait that maybe we saw, and they're all right. I don't know if there's one trait. It's like that's just a great thing about Angus. There's so many options for producers to use.

Mark McCully (00:27:21):
Well, we talk a lot about that and I think, I bet if we pulled up your catalogs from 20 years ago versus your catalogs today, that diversity in the Angus breed is pretty obvious. And I talk about all the time if we're 80% of the gene pool in the U.S. beef industry, we'd better have that variation, right? I mean it's the demand of the breed to contribute both on the maternal side and the growth side and the carcass merit side and the foundation. Joe Elliott's beat convenience traits out of me, so I have to call it foundation traits. He said, these aren't convenience, but all of these things are economically important and we talk about the age of our producer and labor. I had that conversation earlier here today, how important disposition is and calving ease.

Cody Sankey (00:28:03):
But even on your point about age of a producer, it goes both ways. I have two young kids at home. I don't have a lot of patients, and they help. I think the greatest part of the Angus breed is the families. It's a family breed. There's young families and everyone has kids on the farm. So just as important as it is for the older folks, it is for the younger kids as well. No one wants to deal with that.

Miranda Reiman (00:28:26):
Absolutely. Do you guys ever worry about that genetic diversity, given, I mean, you talked about the 50% of the registered cattle are created with AI and our ability to move genetics quicker, and if everybody finds the same traits important and exciting and things like that, do you worry about that genetic diversity narrowing up?

Don Trimmer (00:28:45):
I don't because I think, like Cody said, I mean it is 55% of the cattle registered ai, but there's a wide variety in that 55%. It's not, as we talked earlier, the top bull for registration isn't 10,000 head, it's 4,000 head and there's a lot of bulls that have a hundred progeny or more. So there's quite a bit of diversification still in the breed. Again, depending on what traits you want to focus on or pedigrees you want to focus on, there's still people that like what I'd call the old school pedigrees and propagating those. And on the other end, there's people that are turning generations really quick on very young cattle through IVF

Cody Sankey (00:29:26):
I'd look at it, we're all in search of the outcross sire. So there's definitely value in creating that. So genetic diversity, I think there's definitely opportunity for producers to think outside the box and create that animal. That's great and not related to something else that we've all used.

Mark McCully (00:29:44):
You guys all have a pretty unique vantage point to the dairy industry and what's going on there. Do you see, when you think about diversity, I mean, are there things we can learn by looking across the barnyard and what's going on in the dairy side of things that, going on in your particular companies?

Lorna Marshall (00:30:01):
So their inbreeding would be much higher than what ours is. Mark, you're very right. And I think to your point, it would be really smart for us to see where genomics and turning generation intervals quickly has taken them because diversity is a big conversation on the dairy side of our business. I think there are some things that play into the beef role that makes us a little different in terms of these animals are out in a wide variety of environments, and so we're probably never going to have as homogeneous of a gene pool as what they do, but I do think we need to be aware of it. It's not something I lose sleep over, but it is a trend I think that could easily happen if we don't pay attention to it.

Cody Sankey (00:30:37):
Probably the most underutilized thing on the Angus websites that inbreeding, plug it in and see where they're at. A lot of people probably don't even know that's there, but I go to it every once in a while if I have question

Mark McCully (00:30:47):
Calculator,

Cody Sankey (00:30:48):
See where your inbreeding coefficient is. I think that's smart.

Miranda Reiman (00:30:53):
I've kind of always thought my bias was that there's enough independent producers with enough. I mean, so you're confirming my bias.

Cody Sankey (00:31:01):
People might, I probably, the thing I see different from beef on beef versus beef on dairy is beef on dairy is very margin-based decision making. Very few pick genetics. I think the dairyman does what's the most, they pick the animals that someone recommends to 'em, but they're there to raise milk and produce pounds of milk and do that. And we, like Lorna said, we have an outside environment and we have producers picking a lot of different things that create a lot of different variants and they're involved in every decision that's made on that farm from a sire selection standpoint. I think that creates different from beef on beef versus beef on dairy Don. And from what I see,

Don Trimmer (00:31:40):
And I think the other thing, and I had this conversation yesterday with a producer talking about beef on dairy is when you go into dairy on a dairy farm, they've got 5,000 cows or 10,000 cows. You walk in the first barn and you walk out the last barn and the cows all look the same. They're all the same size because they have to fit through the parlor. And so when we talk about the beef on dairy product, it's probably going to be a more uniform product coming down the pike in our beef industry. And I think that's probably where we're going to be one of their advantages. But getting back to things we've seen in the dairy side, the genomics part on the dairy industry is way more powerful than what we have on the beef side, even though Angus is far ahead of a number of the other breeds, but they really don't care what a bull looks like if they have the data, they just keep plugging in the evaluation and creating the same kind of cows over and over and over again.

Lorna Marshall (00:32:38):
I do think the beef on dairy industry is going to help us evolve into more coordinated supply chains, though. Agreed. To your point, Don, I mean we're breeding 5,000 cows to three very similar bulls, and just as we've watched the beef on dairy industry develop, a lot of supply chains have been working in the beef on dairy space because it is a year-round supply. It's very consistent, it's very uniform. And so I think that's something as the beef industry continues to evolve, understanding how we fit into supply chains without being necessarily controlled by supply chains is I think something that's really important because we want to maintain our independence as beef producers and AI can serve part of that because we can help with that uniformity and consistency and then hitting the targets of those supply chains. And so I think that's something we can actually learn from the beef and dairy space and apply to the beef space, but hopefully do it in a way to where we have a little bit more say so in how that evolves.

Cody Sankey (00:33:33):
Yeah, I agree a hundred percent Lorna, and what producers always ask, beef producers ask, well, how's this beef on dairy impact? I say, well, beef on dairy products, the closest thing we can ever get to poultry and pork in terms of consistent product because you got 5,000, like Lorna said, cows that are, they're all three quarters or five-eighths sisters and you may use one bull, and they all come out and the genetic supply is exactly the same, Mark, you know from your time at CAB, the biggest thing about eating experience is a consistent quality product without any variance. We know at CAB, we have all these specs and we can still get connective tissue and we can still get something that doesn't pass a sensory panel just the right way. And so that is an advantage. And I think as beef producers, we look at that and we should embrace that challenge and like Warren said, utilize the technologies that are given in terms of AI to create that more consistent beef product for the consumer at the end of the line.

Mark McCully (00:34:29):
Absolutely. I think it's going to make everybody better. And I know it's been a topic of discussion for, gosh, almost a decade now and heated arguments, but I think in the end it makes us all better. I don't think the option is anything other than that. And I also think that, I talked to cattle feeders. I'm convinced cattle feeders think about genetics different today than they did before they started feeding some of these, what I'll call new beef on dairy by beef, on dairy, by design, not cleaning the tank kind of ones. And it's made believers of cattle feeders of how important genetics are, which is I think also driving a lot of other good conversations we can have.

Don Trimmer (00:35:08):
And I think the one thing we all need to remember too is we're not necessarily adding more cattle to the system.

Miranda Reiman (00:35:15):
They've always been there.

Don Trimmer (00:35:16):
We made it better. We're replacing a straight Holstein steer or a straight Jersey steer with that, a beef cross,

Miranda Reiman (00:35:21):
And if they can use some Angus genetics to do it, even better

Mark McCully (00:35:26):
Maybe talk about a little from a trait priority standpoint. Obviously you guys got a lot of AI is going into heifer programs, so calving ease, because I hear sometimes it's like, of course you read the sale reports and are we putting too much emphasis on calving ease or low birth weight bulls because well, that's what the bull studs want, but obviously if you're selling a lot of semen into breeding heifer programs, you need that. So maybe talk about how you guys and maybe specifically calving ease, how much priority is that for you guys? How do you balance that? Just maybe some of your thoughts. I just lob these questions out and then I don't look at, I'm not looking at any one of them who wants to answer.

Don Trimmer (00:36:05):
Well, it is been that way for the 30 years I've been in the business and it'll probably be that way in the future. I mean, it is the number one trait that people look at because the majority of what we're going to breed are going to be a heifer or it's going to be a heifer. And whether you like it or not, the benchmark is usually a +10 on calving ease direct. I'm not saying you need to be plus 20, but by golly 10 is a whole lot more easier to sell than nine.

Cody Sankey (00:36:31):
I've used that. We put that chart in our book that Angus put out that says it's seven and above is good, but Don's right I mean 10 and it's a danger zone even at 10 because a few genetic evaluations and some progeny, Lorna and genomic data comes in and he can be a seven just as well as he can be a 12. And we've had bulls that they'd be 13, all of a sudden they're sevens or fours and they're done. I mean, it just eliminates a big volume of sales. So calving ease is definitely a profit driver from a semen sales standpoint.

Lorna Marshall (00:37:02):
I think it depends a little bit too on if they're retaining the heifers or if they're selling the heifers. If they're selling the heifers. Don is right, double digit calving is pretty much a requirement for them to market. Bred heifers, I think we have seen the needle move a little bit with our guys that are breeding heifers to retain them and they'll use an eight or a nine, but they've got to have enough experience with Angus genetics and they're going to stick to high accuracy bulls. But we've had quite a few bulls that are right below 10 that have been very successful in the semen market over the last couple of years. So I think the message is getting out there that we don't need extreme calving ease probably.

Cody Sankey (00:37:39):
I think a lot of it too is environment where you're located at and what your tolerance level is. I mean

Mark McCully (00:37:45):
Spring calving, fall calving,

Cody Sankey (00:37:46):
Yeah, the spring calving versus fall calving. We look at the weather that maybe been across the Midwest. You didn't want a 55 pounder born this last week. You wanted a little grunt and get up and go to that calf so that you were kind of glad you had a nine or an eight. But if you don't have a lot of labor, 13 or 14 maybe required. So there's a lot of management decisions like Lorna says and how they do that, what they go with.

Miranda Reiman (00:38:10):
Absolutely.

Mark McCully (00:38:12):
How about the acquisition process? I mean, I'd be curious how many miles, I mean there was a day where the only way to see these cattle is to get had to there, get in a truck and go find them. Has that process changed?

Cody Sankey (00:38:26):
There's no secrets anymore. I promise you. If you think you found a hidden gem. I'll never forget the day

Mark McCully (00:38:32):
You guys all see each other at the gas station on the way in?

Cody Sankey (00:38:35):
I never forget the day I found a bull in Nebraska I thought no one knew about and there was a competitor leaving the driveway when I was there, and I saw Lorna's worker at the gas station two hours later. So I mean, they're not ever hidden.

Miranda Reiman (00:38:47):
You guys don't like change vehicles or wear disguise or anything?

Cody Sankey (00:38:51):
No, I do think for me the greatest source of finding some of them is the Angus sale book page. I mean, boy, if you have an Angus bull sale and you don't have it on there, it makes it harder to find your information. I mean, granted, we all hear about 'em and we always, they call and tell us about they find you and then they find us and the chatter starts. I mean, Lorna and her crew were able to have Connealy Craftsman, but he wasn't a secret ever when he sold. And so those kind of bulls surface very fast. And so there's a lot of talk, but I think COVID changed how we all did it. We used to all go to every stop, but now there's videos, there's websites, there's EPD sorts. There's so many different ways to find these cattle beforehand, then you maybe decide if you need to go see.

Don Trimmer (00:39:40):
Yeah, that's a great point. COVID, for all the things that was bad, COVID was really good as far as changing the marketing of Angus cattle or a lot of seedstock cattle because people, they were watching sales online, but they weren't comfortable with bidding online. COVID made 'em actually hit the dinger or hit the button and buy something online. And more and more people saw the value of having these sales and DV auction and their superior or CCI or the other venue. So when somebody calls us up now and says, Hey, I've got this bull for sale, he is lot 29 in my sale. They usually have a video that you can look at and decide whether or not you want to get in the truck and leave. But I think, I guess maybe to answer your question, we get a lot more information. We probably know about 'em a little bit earlier, but it's still nice to have somebody go out and get their eyes on.

Miranda Reiman (00:40:31):
Do you always have to go see 'em yourself or do you have other people you trust?

Lorna Marshall (00:40:37):
Yeah, so we have a policy that we,

Miranda Reiman (00:40:38):
She's like, no, actually there's no one else I trust.

Lorna Marshall (00:40:40):
I was going to say, so for me, from an acquisition standpoint, I think the greatest source of joy for me in any of the jobs I've held in the AI industry, honestly, and even with the people around this table are the relationships with the bull owners, the relationships with the team of guys that I get to work with on acquiring bulls, the relationships that the breed associations. To me, that's the best part about my job, honestly. And I like to go look at the bulls, but I really like to visit with the bull owners, to be honest with you. That's my favorite part of the acquisition role. And I think these guys would agree. I know how deep some of their friendships are, and it does. It takes a team of people. So yeah, we do not like to buy a bull without looking at 'em. No matter how good the video is, we have a policy, somebody's going to lay their eyes on the bull, and we've really taken select a team approach. So I get to work with some really awesome guys that lots of people know, like the Joe Myers and the Jon Herricks of the world and the Ryan Bodenhausens. And so it's a team effort. And these guys, I'm sure do the same thing.

Cody Sankey (00:41:44):
Yeah, a lot. Like Lorna said, we want to see every bull. Me personally, if I can, I will, but you can't be everywhere at once. Like Brad Johnson that I work with, our director of genetics, and then we got an awesome field team out there, some young inspiring Angus breeders that also work for us. And so we try and hire people that got good eyes that can get on that. But still seeing the cattle's important phenotype visual appraisal is still, I always think about what we do in sire procurement is a three-legged stool. There's pedigree, there's performance data, information in phenotype, and they have to, you can't short any of those legs or the stool doesn't stand up. And so it's important to make sure that you still, someone sees those cattle. And like Lorna said, meeting the people, spending time with 'em. We all have routines of where you stay and where you eat. Still. We should do this podcast Mark again with the best restaurants you've ever experienced in your sire procurement because I think that's a more fun story to tell

Mark McCully (00:42:44):
Better than Yelp

Cody Sankey (00:42:45):
I always text John Stika and I'm like, ate at this CAB place. You ever been there? And he's like yep, that's a great one. Or I've never been there, but I heard it's great. So those are the fun parts of this job.

Don Trimmer (00:42:55):
One thing I'll add, I mean we've pretty, we probably have the smallest staff. Roger Sosa is my boss, the director of beef programs and myself. So there's only so many places you can be in. I think the third weekend in February, there's probably 20 major sales that you could be at. But one of the things I've utilized over the years was working with Angus regional managers. Those guys are always usually at the sales that I'm looking to buy up bulls. And most of the time they've been there ahead of time and seen these cattle and they'll give you a heads up, Hey, this one is pretty good. He's worth your time. Come if you can get by and look at him, look at him if you can't. I mean, they're usually pretty spot on and pretty honest with you. And it's a little bit of a balancing act. I mean, they're there working for the seller that day, but they also know that if they send me one and he's not right, that's their reputation as well. So my hat's up off to the regional managers and the work that they do and working with both the sellers and the buyers.

Cody Sankey (00:43:54):
Yeah, that's a good point. I talk to the RMs a lot and I know as you all do, they have, call us if you see a great one and they call all three of us at the same time.

Don Trimmer (00:44:07):
They call me first

Cody Sankey (00:44:09):
We're all going to hear about it, and then we all get to sort it out in the end. But you have an awesome staff of field guys that I do trust a lot and we talk to 'em a lot. We feel like they're part of the family there from March and April. We all talk to 'em about every day. And so it's a great staff.

Mark McCully (00:44:28):
Appreciate you guys saying that. I know they work hard to represent, again, both ends and they have to be as objective on those things as they possibly can. And I know are really trusted eyes out in the country every day.

Cody Sankey (00:44:39):
Absolutely. Probably the only guys that travel more than we do.

Miranda Reiman (00:44:43):
So how do you decide then, which ones you're going to actually, first off, do you ever buy online or you always have somebody there in person and how do you decide when you've got this whole big list that you've come up with?

Cody Sankey (00:44:54):
I've bought 'em every way possible.

Miranda Reiman (00:44:56):
Okay.

Cody Sankey (00:44:56):
I've even bought 'em on an airplane one time and sitting there bidding on my phone. So I mean, I'll never forget, we bought a bull. We were taking off in California in the fall sales season, and I was hitting the dinger and got him bought just before we went off.

Mark McCully (00:45:08):
The stewardess was yelling at you to get off your phone.

Cody Sankey (00:45:11):
But I dunno, maybe everybody's different. You try and be there in person, you try and do it on the phone, but there's so many options now,

Don Trimmer (00:45:18):
Again, with the video auction, I remember again that weekend I was talking about, I think it was like Schiefelbein and Janssen and Kevin Yon and Varileks, they're all on the same day and you can't be at all the sales. And I decided I was going to sit at home in my dining room and I bid on bulls,

Miranda Reiman (00:45:36):
Have all the TVs up, all the computers on

Don Trimmer (00:45:40):
I mean, thank goodness for time zones. Somebody's sale started at noon. And somebody was at one and somebody was at 11. But you don't want to have a lot of long presale speeches there because that really messes up your schedule. Yeah, it does. But the video does allow you to go see these cattle ahead of time and you don't necessarily have to be there on sale day. And I'd recommend that to, I think a lot of breeders have found that as well. They maybe can't be there on sale day because their kid's got a basketball tournament or whatever, but get by there ahead of time and it's pretty easy on your computer or even off of your phone to sit there and bid online.

Lorna Marshall (00:46:16):
Sure, there is strategy to bidding and you do lose some anonymity when you are online. So we usually try to have somebody at the sale bidding. We have bought bulls online, but we don't really like to do that. And Craftsman is a very good example of that. So I actually took my neighbor from St. Joe who was a Simmental breed with me to the Connealy sale, and so nobody from ST or Select actually bid on that bull. We had somebody that nobody at an Angus sale would know buy a half a million dollar bull.

Miranda Reiman (00:46:48):
All the heads flipped around pretty quick?

Lorna Marshall (00:46:50):
Exactly. They were like, what just happened? But it's a competitive

Cody Sankey (00:46:56):
Cat and mouse game. There's a lot of back and forth.

Lorna Marshall (00:47:00):
Exactly.

Cody Sankey (00:47:00):
There may even be some ghost accounts on DV auctions to keep your anonymity, a way that well,

Don Trimmer (00:47:07):
When you're sitting there and the auctioneers going, Lorna, you're out. Hit the dinger again, Lorna, you go, okay, I guess, or Cody, you're out. I don't know if they're real really online or not. They know what kind of names...

Lorna Marshall (00:47:20):
And there are a lot of co-ops in the AI space and we're trying to be a good steward of our farmers and ranchers money. And so we're not doing it necessarily to play games, but just to be a very good steward of their money in that regard. So yeah,

Miranda Reiman (00:47:34):
I want to know that neighbor. That feels like a lot of responsibility, I mean, are you sure you want me to keep raising my hand?

Lorna Marshall (00:47:40):
He was a pretty seasoned Simmental breeder, so he thought it was pretty fun.

Mark McCully (00:47:45):
How will things look different five, 10 years? What's going to be the biggest change in the AI industry over the next five to 10 years as you guys sit back and think about it?

Cody Sankey (00:47:56):
I don't know. I'll throw it out there, but I think gene editing for health traits will be something that changes the game. And you have a lot on your plate Mark and how that's handled from a breed association standpoint. But I think if we can create cattle that are resistant to some of the health things that cause issues in feedlot performance, I think that's a game changer in this business. At least Lorna, maybe you'd think differently, but that one I see right there at the front.

Lorna Marshall (00:48:24):
Yeah, no, I'd say health traits is the next frontier for sure. In terms of that, I think we will see more coordination in how end product is distributed, and I think AI can play a really big role in that. I think if there's anything that will move the needle on how much AI we see in the US beef industry, it will be supply chains that have more say-so over the genetics that we use and how those genetics are valued. So I think that could be good. I dunno, I think we'll get better with sexed semen and I think we'll see more use of it very much like we do in the dairy industry.

Don Trimmer (00:48:57):
Yeah, I guess I just echo that with what Lorna said. I think from when we started to just breed an animal with a straw semen or an ampule into the point now where basically we're bringing them on appointment and then we're not only picking the sire, but we're picking the sex of the calf. And I think we'll see more of that moving forward as technology with sexed semen gets better. I think we're going to continue to see more coordination among breeders is we see now these large bull sales that actually have a large number of smaller breeders consigning their bulls to 'em. They sell 'em under basically one brand name. I think we'll see more of that growing and I think those cattle will be fed into some kind of a supply chain like we've seen with other programs, whether it's CAB or other Angus branded programs.

Cody Sankey (00:49:45):
Mark, one other thing that's come to mind that we talked about at that Angus Genetics summit that you had is the red meat yield and I think how that affects the quality and yield grade system, it'll change the sires we select too if there has 3D imaging and if we're looking not just, I think it changes the ribeye EPD, I think that's on the table at some point in the future and how it's addressed and I think that that's very intriguing to me when I think Dale Werner at Tech and what he talks about. It's interesting. It's cool to think about that running cattle through CAT scans, I mean basically 3D point imaging, the technology behind that, it will change the type of cattle we select too. I think. I agree.

Lorna Marshall (00:50:29):
I think the overarching thing over all of those things is data. Every single one of the things we talked about is data-driven and I think that's for Angus breeders. You can't collect too much data and having been an Angus breeder, I know what a pain it is to collect data and submit it, but it will drive our industry and I think how data is collected, how it is shared, who owns it, how is it evaluated, I think all of that will be one of the biggest changes that we see in our industry because honestly compared to most other proteins and even dairy, we have very small amounts of data and we don't collect very many data points compared to what all of those guys do, and I think that's really going to change, AI, will make it easier for AI

Mark McCully (00:51:13):
The other AI,

Lorna Marshall (00:51:13):
We'll make it easier to do all of that, but to your point, I mean red meat yield, none of that would be possible without some of the technology, but that's going to be very data-driven.

Mark McCully (00:51:23):
Makes sense.

Miranda Reiman (00:51:24):
When you mention AI or artificial intelligence, I always think that the opportunity for us to have more passive data collection so that it isn't as hard for producers, that's the thing that I'm looking forward to.

Mark McCully (00:51:36):
Maybe as you guys think about your business model and not to, again, you are all competitors not asking to expose strategy, but it's no secret. You're also many of you're involved in breeding cattle too, right? And have females. How does that play in? How do you think about that? What's the strategy there? Is that about diversity? Is that just about just trying to again, stimulate some genetic progress in some certain areas?

Lorna Marshall (00:52:03):
Nobody's going to share their secrets, Mark.

Mark McCully (00:52:05):
Yeah,

Lorna Marshall (00:52:06):
I think it's because we all see the need for a very terminal animal that we need and not just the United States, but in some other countries as well. And at least from a Select Sires standpoint, we were the last ones to enter this space, so we're probably the furthest behind, but we are doing some things in terms of selection for terminal traits that we would not recommend a Angus breeder in the United States do who's trying to service commercial cattlemen necessarily, unless they're trying to breed a very terminal line of cattle. So we are ignoring things like feet and heifer pregnancy and calving ease, maternal and a lot of things that we should not ignore if we're making bulls that we want to sell in the United States, but it's for a very specific purpose, we're still going to buy some of those bulls from breeders as well. But we're also going to probably put some really hard selection pressure on traits that maybe everybody else shouldn't be doing for their overall business. Makes sense. I dunno. You guys may see it differently.

Mark McCully (00:53:05):
Makes sense.

Don Trimmer (00:53:05):
No, and that's Cody and I, our companies work with Peak Genetics, which is our sister company that on the dairy side produces all the genetics on the beef side. We've got some donors in there that have made cattle for these basically terminal markets for us, but we've also expanded over as we've marketed here during Oklahoma City, some flushes and pregnancies and stuff to Angus breeders, but originally one of the reasons we started was to create our own genetics for the beef on dairy space and also as we talked about earlier, getting these cattle health qualified and controlling their health management from the day they were born so that we can have more markets primarily in Europe and it still is a challenge to keep 'em healthy or keep 'em clean, so to speak, all the way through until they get 'em into production.

Cody Sankey (00:53:54):
Yeah, a question, I got it last week from a producers, do you ever see the beef world being like the dairy world where the bull studs control all the genetics and it's all in-house? And I said, no, I don't ever see it that way. We'll be a part of the equation, but we're never the whole answer. We still, like Lorna said, we'll buy bulls from producers around the country that produce things that we're not focused on producing. Like she said, we're very focused on a set of traits that meet what Don said, terminal beef on dairy and then the health qualifications for the EU. We also export bulls, some of us to Brazil. I think we've all done that and those bulls come out of that program and do some of that stuff. And so I don't think we're ever trying to invade into anybody's business line of work. We felt the need for all of us as a company to be able to maybe control some things that we had a hard time controlling from the outside. Makes sense. And so we're still going to be actively searching out for those strong maternal sires with a dam, with excellent feet and excellent production records and a beautiful udder. I think we all love that. That's what makes the Angus breed what it is today.

Miranda Reiman (00:55:01):
When you talk about those animals, I think that's the number one question that people will ask themselves if they haven't been lucky enough to have you on their operations or buy one is how do we get our bull noticed by you?

Cody Sankey (00:55:15):
Yeah, like I said, put 'em as lot one on the Angus sale book page that we find them pretty fast, but always call. I mean that's the easiest way. If you think you have one, call us and let us know about 'em.

Don Trimmer (00:55:27):
Yeah, I mean I never turned down a phone call or an email

Cody Sankey (00:55:30):
Never this time of year

Don Trimmer (00:55:31):
For sure when somebody says, Hey, I got one. Because I think about a bull out in Nebraska last year that sold for like 70 or 75,000 and I mean I knew that it was a small breeder, actually bigger in another breed, but he had a bull that genomic'ed really well and he was kind of unique pedigree and he called up and you look him up and you go, yeah, this bull is kind of unique. And I think everybody went and looked at him.

Cody Sankey (00:55:51):
He's the one where I saw everybody.

Don Trimmer (00:55:55):
It's interesting when I think back though about finding 'em, and I'm going to show my age now, but used to, there wasn't a non-parent list. Well, there wasn't anything on the internet.

Miranda Reiman (00:56:06):
There wasn't the internet.

Don Trimmer (00:56:09):
So you got the... wow, thanks Mark. But they used to put out the sire summary twice a year and in visiting, I think back when John Crouch was director of breed improvement, they could pull off the computer, a non-parent list. And so I'd call up there, one of the girls in the office and say, Hey, here's my parameters again, very few traits at the time. Can you send me a list? And she'd put the parameters in, they'd get the list of about let's say 30 bulls and I'd look to 'em and see where they were. I'd call some of these guys up and they wouldn't know. There was no way you could tell how your bull ranked in the breed as a non-parent. And so I probably would know more information on some of these guys on their own bull in their sale catalog and sometimes it comes back to haunt you because I'm trying to buy this bull and the guy stops the sale and he goes, well now this bull, and he basically repeated for a word what

Miranda Reiman (00:57:06):
He had written it down verbatim?

Don Trimmer (00:57:06):
... and his grandmother is the mother of lot 50 in the sale. And so just the ability of the data that we have right now and how instantaneous it is, and I'll even say I was one of the opponents of the once a week evaluation and I remember Bill Davis saying, well Don, it doesn't matter, it's just like a can of Skoal. It just has a born on date on the back of it and really has been very useful for us to get the most accurate data as quickly as possible.

Cody Sankey (00:57:36):
Yeah, one of the fun parts and I think would all agree is though is that aha moment when you find the one when you're there before the sale or you find them and you go evaluate 'em and all the stars align and it's like, alright, now we're going to go after this one. We're going to dig in and it's the one and when you get 'em bought, I mean that's what I love the adrenaline rush behind it. I'm not athletic enough to continue to play sports, but it's the closest thing I've found getting that part since being in that.

Mark McCully (00:58:06):
Do you guys have the one bull that you is kind of one of the favorite of you either brought your neighbor along to get 'em bought or that just turned out, is there one that

Miranda Reiman (00:58:20):
He literally just stole my random question of the week? It's okay. That's a good question.

Mark McCully (00:58:24):
Well, that's why you should tell me your random question of the week.

Miranda Reiman (00:58:27):
Answer that one. I'll come up with a new one.

Don Trimmer (00:58:30):
Well, I've got two bulls, BR New Frontier 095 was probably one of my favorite bulls of all time and I'll give part of the credit to Mark Squires at Express Ranches because he was our director of beef marketing at the time and the bull was on display in Denver at Bill Rishel's pen and we both really liked him and was fortunate enough to buy him at the sale and he sold a lot of semen. I think he's one of the leading bulls in the breed for registration and we don't have enough time to go into my Ten X story, but it's a pretty good story. But he was the bull that had probably the biggest impact of any bull I brought in.

Miranda Reiman (00:59:04):
I don't know, we've got a little bit of time.

Mark McCully (00:59:10):
Lorna, do you have a favorite?

Lorna Marshall (00:59:11):
I'm afraid to pick a favorite. I'm going to be really honest.

Mark McCully (00:59:13):
Like picking a favorite child?

Lorna Marshall (00:59:15):
I haven't been around quite as long as Don, but between three companies I've got to be associated with a lot of great bulls. So it would be really hard for me to pick one, to be honest with you.

Miranda Reiman (00:59:25):
Politically correct?

Mark McCully (00:59:26):
Very safe answer.

Lorna Marshall (00:59:27):
Really true. It's really true.

Miranda Reiman (00:59:31):
Cody will pick. He ain't scared

Cody Sankey (00:59:35):
Probably, there's all kinds of, at the time I was new, the first bull I'll go to the first bull I ever bought at Genex, and it was GAR Ashland and he didn't cost a lot of money and I went to Gardiners', had been at my parents' house and drove there and I walked out the back door of the Gardiner sale facility and this bull goes across the pen and I said, I don't know what he is, but that's a good bull. I said, we're going to go own him. So I go out there and evaluate. I'm like, Lorna and her crew have a pretty good relationship with Gardiner Angus Ranch, so I didn't know where we were going to end up in this process and we were able to acquire that bull. I think it's like 10,500. And the contending bidder was a commercial person and the impact Ashland had then created Hometown who led the breeding registrations and we were one bit away from him never being seen again, going to breeding commercial cows and just I've always thought that was an interesting story because it wasn't that he cost the most and he never even led the breeding registrations himself, but he made an impact by creating a son that did. Unfortunately it was for Lorna, but so be it. But I always remembered that one. That was my first one and it just has always stuck with me. It didn't cost a lot, but it was fun to watch him have an impact on the Angus breed.

Mark McCully (01:00:57):
Well, I think your point of he's one bid away from going into commercial.

Miranda Reiman (01:01:00):
Nobody would know him.

Mark McCully (01:01:01):
We would never have known him.

Don Trimmer (01:01:02):
Right. Well, that's what I've said For years a lot of the great sires of the breed were never identified because the commercial man bought him. He went out, he probably bred cows for five or six years. The guy kept great daughters out of him, the calves top the market, but

Miranda Reiman (01:01:17):
We don't know.

Don Trimmer (01:01:18):
We don't know.

Miranda Reiman (01:01:19):
Right. Did you ever write a check that you thought, oh, I'm going to be in trouble for this afterwards?

Lorna Marshall (01:01:25):
Oh yeah.

Miranda Reiman (01:01:28):
Her face changed

Cody Sankey (01:01:29):
Ask for forgiveness. Yeah.

Lorna Marshall (01:01:31):
Yes.

Miranda Reiman (01:01:33):
And have you had enough of them go the right way that you're still employed, I guess?

Lorna Marshall (01:01:38):
Yeah, I am on my third employer. But I am still employed, yes.

Cody Sankey (01:01:42):
That's why bulls like Ashland cost 10,500 help balance that procurement number down.

Miranda Reiman (01:01:48):
That's why you mentioned that one in particular, right?

Cody Sankey (01:01:48):
Usually balances out the offset

Miranda Reiman (01:01:51):
Very good. Well, it's been fun to have you guys on today. I know I try to respect the hour time frame that I gave you and that. So is there anything else you'd like to add before we do a random question of the week?

Cody Sankey (01:02:02):
I love the Angus breed and working with you guys and thanks for having us on here. It's fun to come on here and talk about it, what we all do on a day-to-day basis.

Lorna Marshall (01:02:12):
Yeah, just thank you very much. We appreciate what the Angus Association does to make our business run and appreciate all the staff one in particular, but we do really appreciate what the Angus Association does

Don Trimmer (01:02:25):
Yeah. And I guess I was raised Angus, worked for American Angus and been in this business a long time. As Lorna mentioned earlier, it's our friendships we have with Angus breeders and people around the country. People ask me when I'm going to retire and I say I get to go see my closest friends numerous times a year that are scattered

Miranda Reiman (01:02:45):
For work.

Don Trimmer (01:02:47):
That are in Nebraska or Montana or Virginia or wherever, scattered around here or events like this. And that's really the thing that keeps us going. It's fun to find a new bull and it's exciting. Like Cody says, when you walk in the pen and the bull you had marked down is the one that's just standing there on the pile and you go, wow, that's a really good rascal and please, let's make sure his tag matches up. But it really, it's the people, this business that is what's been the most rewarding part.

Cody Sankey (01:03:17):
Yeah, I would second that. It's a people business. We all have great bulls and great books and they come from all different breeders, but it's definitely a people business and the opportunity, like Don said, whether you're in Dillon, Montana, or you're in South Carolina or North Dakota or somewhere, you see all the different aspects of the Angus breed and how that cow is so resilient no matter what environment you put her in, whether she's on fescue or native pasture or she's, irrigated pasture. That's my favorite part is the people and the places that you get to go and see.

Miranda Reiman (01:03:51):
That's cool. That's something that we hear from, I mean breeders say that that's their favorite part of the business. We get researchers on here, they say the same thing. So it's a neat thread. Okay, random question of the week. Since Mark stole mine, I'm going to steal Cody's. What's your favorite place to stop along the road? You got a favorite restaurant, a favorite place to stay could even be a favorite town if you've got one

Cody Sankey (01:04:12):
You've been in it first Don, you go. Yeah. So I'll jump into it. So I'm going to give you a couple of them.

Miranda Reiman (01:04:22):
Is it a top 10 list?

Cody Sankey (01:04:23):
It could be. It's a whole podcast in itself. I want write someday. I'm going to write a, Don's been at it longer, but Brad Johnson said we're going to write a book when we're done.

Miranda Reiman (01:04:32):
Better hire Lindsay to write it.

Cody Sankey (01:04:34):
I'm married to the excellent writer.

Miranda Reiman (01:04:36):
Yeah, that's right.

Cody Sankey (01:04:36):
But I tell you my favorite CAB stop is, they both happen to be real close. Favorite is 40s in Bismarck, North Dakota. They've got the branding iron on the wall. They'd be up there as one of the top CAB, but Rusty Saloon in St. Anthony, North Dakota. I will drive out of the way to stop at Rusty Saloon.

Miranda Reiman (01:04:59):
Very good. I like it. I've never been to either of them.

Cody Sankey (01:05:02):
Oh my. You better go, Jeff at Rusty's will take care of you.

Miranda Reiman (01:05:07):
Right. I'll tell him Cody Sankey sent me.

Cody Sankey (01:05:09):
You do that.

Don Trimmer (01:05:11):
Well, I guess there's a lot of great places around the country and that's again, one of the blessings is the variety of scenery that you get to go. And I think I'm like a lot of people, anytime you go to the mountains of Montana, it's a beautiful scenery out there. I guess my favorite restaurant is a little place called The Land of Magic in Logan, Montana. It's a CAB restaurant. My wife Jean, she goes, what is this land of magic you're visiting all the time? It does sound a little suspicious, a little sketchy sound every time we go there. It's a great little restaurant. They've had CAB for a long time and I think the guy was the local ag teacher that owns the place. A little rustic place. You got to want to find it. And it's not too far from the Oasis, which is in Manhattan. Montana is another famous restaurant out there, but Land of Magic would probably be one of my favorite places

Cody Sankey (01:06:03):
Point of reverence. The last time I hit the Land of Magic with Don Trimmer, we hit a deer on the way in and rolled in on about three wheels and a dragging bumper in a rental car. Yeah,

Miranda Reiman (01:06:12):
I hope you got a good

Mark McCully (01:06:13):
But well fed.

Miranda Reiman (01:06:15):
That's right. Very good. Alright, Lorna.

Lorna Marshall (01:06:19):
There's lots of them I like, but my favorite restaurant, if you want to know,

Miranda Reiman (01:06:22):
You're not going to offend a restaurant owner, you have to give us that.

Lorna Marshall (01:06:24):
I know, but my favorite restaurant in the United States is called Barbacoa in Boise, Idaho. And it is awesome and it is an experience. So if I had to pick one, I like all the ones they mentioned. I've been to most of those, but Barbacoa is my pick

Cody Sankey (01:06:39):
And then you got the Rib and Chop that's all over the, you can't miss that. A great CAB restaurant.

Miranda Reiman (01:06:46):
And of course you can find CAB restaurants. If you go to the website and you're traveling to new location, you just punch in your town and within 75 miles you'll get a list.

Lorna Marshall (01:06:55):
I think the thing that's improved the most maybe are the meals that get served at the bull sales over our career. That has definitely been elevated to new experiences. That's also a list and I think we all really like this. Yes, we all have our favorite bull sale meals

Mark McCully (01:07:10):
And I'm sure you'll not tell us those

Miranda Reiman (01:07:11):
I was just going to say, I had some sale managers on once and I asked them that question and they were very tentative to answer because yeah,

Mark McCully (01:07:18):
Sheepish, yeah

Miranda Reiman (01:07:18):
Right.

Cody Sankey (01:07:19):
I dunno. They all do so good and it's usually always CAB, but there's definitely, Lorna is right. They've all upped their game.

Miranda Reiman (01:07:28):
Absolutely. Well, great. Well thank you guys so much for taking the time to visit with us today and share some of your experience and good luck as you guys travel down the road. You're headed into your busiest season.

Mark McCully (01:07:38):
Yeah, we appreciate you guys and sharing again, the perspective of where we've been and where we're going. I think an insight to the breed definitely come at this from a little different vantage point and all three definitely thought leaders in this industry and we greatly appreciate you spending some time with us this morning

Miranda Reiman (01:07:57):
And all the accolades. They said so many nice things about us. We might have you back again.

Mark McCully (01:08:00):
Yeah, I could be around too. Appreciate that. Might be focused all on the food and stories from the road. We didn't get into a lot of stories from

Cody Sankey (01:08:08):
The stories from the road. We could get Stika in here and talk about restaurants. It'd be a whole 'nother podcast.

Miranda Reiman (01:08:15):
We'll look forward to that sometime in the future. Thank you guys.

Cody Sankey (01:08:18):
Thank you.

Miranda Reiman (01:08:20):
What a fun episode to record in person. By the time this one drops, we will be at the Cattle Industry Convention and Trade Show recording fresh new episodes in person in our booth. If you're in San Antonio, stop by and say hi. And if you're not, follow along on our social media channels on Instagram and Facebook and you can find out what the Angus Journal team has been up to. This has been the Angus Conversation, an Angus Journal podcast.